Dashboard re-design, stalks and all!

[gouldsborough7]

I started a message on this theme some time ago, which ran to over 20 replies. However, I have thought of a few tweaks for an alternative way of dealing with the 'stalks' and remote ignition switch, which I thought might be worth passing on to members.

When I bought my Berli, the indicator stalk was already bent at right-angles through a 'hole'. So without chucking it away, and fitting a non-cancelling switch on the dashboard, I concluded that as it worked OK I was stick with it.

For the wiper and lighting stalks, I considered dumping those, but costs were mounting plus the complications of revised wiring, so they remain also. Bending them through 90 degrees was a bit worrying, as at the very least the washer button would stop working, and would need a new one on the dash.

Solution was found in my collection of bits a small piece of aluminium sheet (say 100mm x 100mm), already bent at 90 degrees. With some cutting and drilling, I have screwed one side to the 2 threaded holes that the switch was attached to. By turning the whole switch through 90 degrees, I was able to attach this to the other half of the aluminium. Slighting re-positioning the cable loom allowed the connections to be restored. So now the 2 stalks are pointing straight at me.

My aim with the new dashboard is to keep the 'holes' for the 3 stalks as neat/small as possible, and cut the burr walnut laminate full-width, door-to-door. Unfortunately, this new design plus the tweak with the stalks above makes the key in the ignition switch even more difficult operate. I am planning to install a new switch on the front of the dash, and attach it to lengthened cables that used to be soldered to the old switch. The latter will no longer operate electrically, but will have the key permanently inserted and turned to the ON position, so that the steering lock will not operate.

I did wonder whether I could do away with the steering lock entirely, but Mr Haynes' manual talks about removing steering column to do this.

Q. Has anybody a quick way of removing or disabling the steering lock? Leaving the key in the ON position is my solution at present, but I would rather the steering lock didn't work at all. It would be safer!

Cheers
Mike

[macdonald.dm]

Re: Dashboard re-design, stalks and all!

Hi Mike.

Ah, the mother of invention... Looking forward to seeing photos.

As for the dash-mounted ignition switch, I intend to fit one too. My current thoughts are to keep the column-mounted switch in place and to keep the ignition wire running through it BEFORE it gets to the column switch. The engine 'cranking' wire will be on the dash switch only.

By doing this, it shouldn't be possible to start the car without the column switch key being fully engaged first, thereby releasing the steering lock. The dash switch would crank the car over even if the column switch key is removed, but the ignition lights won't come on, nor the ignition receive its feed, unless the steering lock is first released. In practice I would imagine only bothering to remove the column switch key if the car was left overnight somewhere other than in my garage - otherwise I probably wouldn't bother!

Keeping the column switch/steering lock is useful added security. Don't forget that if you rely on the dash switch only, your car will be particularly susceptible to being 'hot-wired'. If you fully remove the steering lock too, then...

I certainly WOULDN'T keep the column lock unless the ignition wiring was also going through it. The thought of driving off and finding the steering is still locked doesn't bear thinking about...

I'll check my Haynes manual and see what's involved in removing the lock.

[gouldsborough7]

Re: Dashboard re-design, stalks and all!

Hi Donnie
From a security point of view I didn't want to immobilise the steering lock mechanism. It was just the thought of it accidentally locking the steering wheel that bothered me.

I like your idea about keeping the 2 switches linked electrically, but I was unsure how to go about this. On the back of the existing lock there are 3 heavy duty cables: Red is the battery supply, and 2 blacks - one comes alive when the key is turned to the ON position, and the second is alive when the starter is cranked. There is also a lighter grade of cable only for accessories I think.

I have bought a new switch from CBS, which I hope will swap over once I have figured out how it is configured. I'll rig up some cables to it, and attach the BATT spade to a 12volt supply, and with multi-meter see how it performs.

If you have any suggestions as to how I actually link this new switch with the old one, then I would appreciate any thoughts you may be able to offer.

Cheers
Mike

[macdonald.dm]

Re: Dashboard re-design, stalks and all!

Hi Mike.

There's really no risk of locking the wheel once your on the road - you'd have to reach under and deliberately remove the column key on the move as you currently would; it's not something we do very often! As you know, we just need to prevent the car being started in the first place without the steering being unlocked first.

From your description of the two switches, I think the simplest solution (always appeals to me...) would be to:

(1) Remove the black 'on' (or 'ignition') wire from the column switch. This should be extended to connect to the dashboard switch's EQUIVALENT terminal (ie: goes live when key turned to first 'ignition' position).

(2) Take a new wire from the now-vacant 'on'/'ignition' terminal on the column switch and feed it to the 'battery supply' terminal on the new dash switch. By 'battery supply' terminal, I mean the main input terminal on the switch ie: like the 'red' one on the column switch.

(3) Remove the black 'cranking'/'start' wire from the old column switch, extend it if necessary, and attach it to the new switch's 'crank'/'start' terminal.

(4) Leave the grey 'accessories' wire where it is - it should still be fed by the old switch when engaged. (Actually, this 'accessories' wire might be activated by turning the key switch ANTICLOCKWISE once inserted - it's a way of originally getting the radio, etc., going without having to turn on the ignition (leaving the ignition light 'on' without running the engine can cause problems like overheating coils).)

The only electrical difference this would do to the 'system', is that a single 'black' wire is now carrying both the ignition power and the cranking power. However, I don't believe that's a problem as the black 'ignition' wire is pretty heavy in any case (as it has to handle lights, heater, radio, etc) and the cranking drain is (a) only for a few seconds (hopefully), and (b) run via a relay anyway, so isn't that great.

Sketch all this out first to make sure you agree with it, and have it clear in your head - and to check I haven't made any bloopers...

(PS. Thanks for this thread - it's made me sit down and work out things I'll need pretty soon for myself!)

[macdonald.dm]

Re: Dashboard re-design, stalks and all!

By the way, wiring it this way should mean that NOTHING happens when you turn the dash key without the column key being inserted and turned first - neither the ignition lights, nor the cranking. So it's better than my initial thoughts in my FIRST post.

[macdonald.dm]

Re: Dashboard re-design, stalks and all!

Hi again, Mike!

Just to avoid any possible confusion in my post above concerning the 'accessories' part: I've just looked at my own column ignition switch, and the 'accessories' position is the first clockwise 'click' of the key switch (not an ANTI-clockwise move as I thought it was above before I looked!).

However, on the new dash switch - and yours looks to be identical to the one I plan to use - the accessories position IS an anticlockwise move. Not that this makes any difference in practice!

I still plan to leave my 'accessories' wire attached to the steering column switch as it strikes me as being pretty pointless moving it to the dash - why play about moving a wire when it's not necessary?! If you want to listen to the radio with the engine off, the column key will have to be inserted and given a first click - something you'd have to do in any case even if you moved the accessories wire to the new switch. So, nothing to be gained by moving it as far as I can see.

To bring the dash key into the game, the column key will have to be turned to the second, 'ignition' position - ie: the same position as it always had to be before the ignition came on. Obviously, nothing will happen until the dash switch is then operated. Similarly, if you turn the column switch to the 'crank' position, nothing will happen either - this operation will have been completely moved to the new switch.

[jezshim]

Re: Dashboard re-design, stalks and all!

Just finished building my new dash. (not as nice as those walnut ones).
The switches are delta switches from europaspares. The connections are numberd on the back of the switches from 1 to 5 but does anybody know what each number is for?.
I also have a new loom from rapidfit so that should make life a bit easier.
As for the indicators I was going to fit a rotary switch on stearing wheel as I havn't left enough room to get the stalks in .

[gouldsborough7]

Re: Dashboard re-design, stalks and all!

With multi-meter in "checking circuit" mode, I operated the CBS ignition switch/key and established what each click of the key did. Then I sat down with a blank sheet and sketched out the wiring diagram. Fired up with confidence, I re-jigged the wiring using a robust chocolate-block, cut to provide 4 independent connections. The choice of joining method was largely dictated by the existing switch having all cables connected by solder, and in a very tight space. Of the 3 old main cables, I only had to cut 2 in half to make revised connections and leave 1 totally un-disturbed. 3 new cables were attached to the new switch by spade-connectors and connections made between old/new. If anyone wants a wiring diagram, I'll draw up a good version and attach it to a message here.

Anyway, it all works a treat, and the key/switch is now on the front of the dash, with old key/switch permanently set in the ON position (no power goes to this anymore). Slight problem is that with 3 or 4 other keys and fob attached, my left knee keeps getting rubbed by keys! Might have to move the location. As the layout is only a trial run, I might change to nearer the centre of the dash on the final version.

Cheers
Mike

[macdonald.dm]

Re: Dashboard re-design, stalks and all!

Hi Mike - I'd be interested to see what you've done.

Do I take it that the old column switch is now electrically redundant, so that if you remove the key it will still - gulp - be possible to start the car via the dash switch?

[donsayers]

Re: Dashboard re-design, stalks and all!

It is illegal to have a steering lock that can be engaged in any way with the engine running and the car will not pass an MOT if it is possible. I am not sure reading the above if it is or not.

When I re did the dash on my roadster I found the remains of the steering lock still in place, with a sawn off key still in it. Aaaaargh. Honestly it took all of a minute to saw through the bolts that held it and remove it.

[gouldsborough7]

Re: Dashboard re-design, stalks and all!

The wiring diagram attached only allows the engine to run when BOTH old & new keys are turned to the ON position. Hope the diag is clear.

See also attached photos of the wiper/lamps stalks turned through 90 degrees on a home-made bracket.

Cheers
Mike

[macdonald.dm]

Re: Dashboard re-design, stalks and all!

Hi Mike.

Your wiring diagram seems absolutely fine. Quite sneaky - you can crank your engine using the dash key until the cows come home, but it won't fire up unless the column key has also been turned - that should keep any potential thieves busy!

Your idea for the column controls is a cracker - I'm now seriously considering this for my lights and wiper controls. In theory, if the switch unit is taken up close to behind the dash, the stalks can be cut down quite dramatically until only little stumps pass through the dash itself via neat little slots - they'll look almost like toggle switches. Of course, the washers will require a separate push switch in this case.

Nice. Back to the drawing board for me...

[gouldsborough7]

Re: Dashboard re-design, stalks and all!

Donnie
Yes, I was quite pleased with my homework - the stalks will look better. Funny thing though, after about week the horn- push on the wiper stalk has stopped working. Why didn't it do that straight away? So a button will shortly appear on the dash.

A strange thing though with the new ignition switches - when I turn off the engine (using the new switch), the engine stops immediately!

You might say "so what!", but 50% of the time in the past, the engine has run on for 5-10 seconds, sometimes requiring it to be stalled in gear.

So what's the answer? I guess the old switch has seen better days, and somehow it did not isolate the power to the ignition in a positive way. So many times in the past, I have been cleaning up spark plugs, checking connections and tweaking the mixture screws on the carburettor, running the engine for 30 seconds before switching off etc. The carb is off a 3litre Grannie, so I blamed that sometimes!

Cheers
Mike

[ozebrowns]

Re: Dashboard re-design, stalks and all!

Mike,
I may have mis-understood the various posts but I'll offer the following:
1. Any teenage hoodie can tell you that the way to defeat a steering lock is to force a large self-tapper into the key slot then apply a slide-hammer and a few good whacks will break the retaining pins and the barrel comes out. You can then dismantle the innards. I can assure any readers who didn't know that this is common knowledge; I've just asociated with some dodgy types.
2. I've never liked the look of bent indicator stalks in a Berli. Being a sparky nerd I sat down and worked out the switching sequence for the stalk switches then replicated this using compact modular relays. They're operated by simple toggle switches (centre-off type for the indicators) which are mounted on the dash behind the steering wheel and fall quite neatly to the fingers. I can send the wiring diagram for this if you're interested.

[macdonald.dm]

Re: Dashboard re-design, stalks and all!

Dash in place, with a few little jobs to finish off - new top padded panel, and bottom trim, etc.

It - mostly - works! Tachy is a bit intermittent (don't know yet if it's electrical or just 'sticky'). Also, ignition light doesn't come on (old problem), but the rest of the electrics are fine!

Horn push is on dash (since indicator stalk was cut down) and ditto for screen washer.

Dash-mounted ignition switch works a treat - in fact the car now starts instantly! When carrying out an investigation of the terminals of the old column-mounted ignition switch, I discovered that the ignition supply - when cranking - was a bit dodgy; it had noticeable resistance, which fluctuated while the key was held in cranking mode! So my old column ignition switch was a bit dodge, and I didn't know...

Obviously, I wired the new dash ign switch so that the car won't fire up unless the old column key is first engaged and turned to 'ign'. However, if the old key isn't engaged at all, the new key will still crank the car and the car WILL fire up as long as the key is 'cranking'! As soon as you release from the cranking position, the engine conks out...

I realise this is due to the coil receiving a supply from the ballast resistor being by-passed during cranking. As soon as you stop cranking, the coil resorts to its usual ignition supply - which it won't get unless the column key is fitted first. So it conks out. Feels just like a 'stubborn' starter!

Anyways, the stalks. I have to admit this was the main reason for me tackling the dash in the first place - to get rid of the dashboard cut-outs. I'm chuffed to report my solution works a treat.

It might seem a bit drastic chopping down the existing stalks and attaching new steel rods to them, but is was a very quick and simple task.

The main idea behind it is to bend the new stalk right back on itself so that it ends up in line with the 'pivot' point inside the switch itself, before travelling up to meet and pass through the dash. This means the shaft ROTATES where it comes through the dash instead of moving in an arc. This works perfectly with the wiper stalk, but a small slot is still required for the indicator/beam-dip stalk as it also has to travel sideways.

Oh, the small light switch stalk is still there - buried behind the dash! I bent its arm to make it point downwards, and it's really easy to operate by running your fingers under the dash at that point. I left it there because I didn't have a dash-mounted light switch which was wiring-compatible.