Well I didn't expect that...

[lil_red_roadster]

Out on a rather wet test drive after a recent engine in/out & came up to a roundabout only to find myself going straight on despite steering inputs to the contrary. With no other option but to ride it out the car bumped up the kerb & stopped. Fearing bent suspension I flicked on the hazards & jumped out only to nothing amiss other than a tie-rod bush rolling down the road..!

Everything looked OK, tie-rods were still attached so I gingerly drove home (luckily only 5 mins away) taking care not to brake sharply.

Investigation at home confirmed something I would have previously considered impossible...the tie-rod had clearly moved back under braking, deforming the washer & pulling it & the securing nut clean through the bush (Polybush), past the split pin & sending the now free (and apparently undamaged) bush spinning into the road.

Picture below of the bent washer. I've had a tie-rod break on me before (not in the Marlin though)...it really isn't a pleasant experience. I think a pair of rose-jointed rods have just gone to the top of the "to do" list.

20140426_161101.jpg

[listerjp2]

Re: Well I didn't expect that...

Oops

That was a lucky escape.

Looking at doing the same i.e Rose jointed tie bar.

How are you going to go about it?

Adrian

[philcoyle]

Re: Well I didn't expect that...

Oh well here we go!
On my old set up there was a cup washer similar to a shock absorber bush washer over the rubbers on either side of the bracket, and then the thick washer that you have reshaped then the nut. Would it be a factor in your recent white OMG OMG OMG moment that the cup washers are absent, but then I could wake up in the shower and I'm only 22 again.

[lil_red_roadster]

Re: Well I didn't expect that...

Correct Phil - there is no cup washer.
Neither is there one shown in the Marina workshop manual and nor was there on the original donor car...simply a plain washer.
That plain washer has seen over 90k miles.

The Mini and Minor on the other hand do both use cup washers.

[philcoyle]

Re: Well I didn't expect that...

I'm glad I converted to wishbone and coilovers, because I don't think I could be at ease driving, having seen the picture above. (toilet humour) I bet the skid marks on the road were not the only ones. My apologies if you are easily offended.
Phil

[dcunn]

Re: Well I didn't expect that...

Lucky one there Phil !

ISTR Hugh Cumming writing something in an old Pitstop about rose jointed tie bars - or maybe senility is setting in.

Whatever, it's worth a look through the old Tech Tips

Rgds DC

[lil_red_roadster]

Re: Well I didn't expect that...

No skid marks & no offence taken Phil
I've just ordered some Minor cup washers, which are 3/8 bore - hopefully the Minor bushes are a similar diameter to the Marina or it's a tenner wasted.
Mini items have a 7/16 bore, so too large.

Adrian - as regards rose-jointed there are various options. Hugh Cumming did a write up in Pitstop some while ago with diagrams etc. Alternatively chop the bush-end off the tie rod & thread it 1/2", then add a female rod end & fit a U bracket to the existing chassis point...I think this is how Steve Fortune used to do it as I've seen a couple of trials cars done that way.

For fully on-car adjustable I did look at using off the shelf parts from McGill Motorsports (turnbuckles, clevis & rod ends) for a non-welded setup. Unfortunately I can't seem to find a clevis the correct size to accommodate a decent sized rod end. I'll keep looking though.

[philcoyle]

Re: Well I didn't expect that...

I know from experience that HGV brake chambers use 1/2" 5/8" actuating rods with clevis forks and 1/2" pins on the brake chamber to brake actuator/adjuster . So maybe a search into the HGV world may help, or even a breakers. Some of the forks can be from 1. 1/2" up to 3" long. Its quite a common part in the HGV parts store and their suppliers like Truckstop mobile or Hawkes.

[CompoSimmonite]

Re: Well I didn't expect that...

I know from experience that HGV brake chambers use 1/2" 5/8" actuating rods with clevis forks and 1/2" pins on the brake chamber to brake actuator/adjuster . So maybe a search into the HGV world may help, or even a breakers. Some of the forks can be from 1. 1/2" up to 3" long. Its quite a common part in the HGV parts store and their suppliers like Truckstop mobile or Hawkes.

I've forgotten why but for a previous project I wanted HGV brake forks so went to the local brake specialist and bought quite a few (still got them so the project must have got "cancelled" ). There was quite a wide selection and specialist was very helpful in getting me a sample of the various types to look at before deciding what was most suitable. Best thing was they were amazingly cheap.

Paul H

[cameronfurnival]

Re: Well I didn't expect that...

"Out on a rather wet test drive after a recent engine in/out & came up to a roundabout only to find myself going straight on despite steering inputs to the contrary. With no other option but to ride it out the car bumped up the kerb & stopped. Fearing bent suspension I flicked on the hazards & jumped out only to nothing amiss other than a tie-rod bush rolling down the road..!"
mwuuahhhaahhhhhaaaa my plan to get to stoneleigh in my lwb roadster before you is working! Seriously though Jez, if you need a large scotch after that I have a good selection of malts.

[b_caswell]

Re: Well I didn't expect that...

Cameron did you speak too soon ? stop drinking the Scotch and get that engine turning!

[lil_red_roadster]

Re: Well I didn't expect that...

I think I've finally figured out a fully adjustable tie rod which uses off the shelf parts and which does not involve any welding or significant machining.
The biggest obstacle I found in trying to source parts was finding a suitable clevis that could replace the lower arm tie-rod fork yet still accommodate a 1/2" rod-end (didn't want to use a smaller bearing). A 1/2 rod end needs a 5/8 gap to fit, which meant boring out the lower arm quite significantly to fit the accompanying 5/8 thread of the clevis (or bearing depending on which way you wanted to go).

So, working back from the lower arm here's my thinking...

1) Continue to use the existing fork
2) Cut the tie rod a few inches up from where it flattens into the fork
3) Thread it 1/2" UNF
4) Acquire a 1/2" turnbuckle linkage
5) (1/2") L/H male rose joint goes in the other end of the turnbuckle
6) Use a 3/4" clevis in the existing chassis front bracket...this is big enough to accommodate a 1/2 rod end & is the right size to fit the exiting tie-rod hole in the chassis bracket.

Job done...in theory.
The rod ends, clevises & turnbuckles (in varying lengths) can all be acquired from McGill Motorsport (eBay or web). The only machining required is to cut & thread the tie-rod.

Any thoughts/comments/other ideas..?

[listerjp2]

Re: Well I didn't expect that...

Hiya

If you do decide to go down this route I would be interested to see a picture or two to see how its done.

Adrian

[jon_cox]

Re: Well I didn't expect that...

Hi Jez,

Great minds think alike. I did the planning stage but not the execution. McGill have a good range but you can't buy the parts I needed direct off their website and I never got around to calling them.
Like you a wanted something with a bit more metal so I swapped the clevis pin and bearing around at the suspension leg end so I could use a 3/8" bearing (same size as the hole through the suspension arm so no enlarging required) which I felt would be adequate. Length of turnbuckle with the 1/2" sizing then becomes a problem. If you use the female bearing then you need a turnbuckle that will cope with 255mm - 270mm centres which IS available with their 225mm-260mm version but you are quite close to the limits and requires that the clevis at the chassis plate needs to be offset using the nuts more than I would like increasing the forces.
I would prefer to use the male 3/8" bearing at the suspension arm to reduce turning moment forces. The female has a distance of 1.625" from mounting face to the bearing hole centre whilst the male can be adjusted using the nuts down to around 1" but this requires a longer turnbuckle of 270mm-285mm which they do not seem to supply off the shelf in the 1/2" size BUT DO offer it in the 3/8" size....... So you can see why I did not finish the task.
I hope these images makes it a bit more obvious......
I have used the part numbers from their website for you to refer back to. REMEMBER if you go this route that the clevis only comes in a right hand thread so the opposite end bearing must be ordered as a left hand thread.
To make it clear the version that uses the female bearing will work as far as dimensions go.

Cheers
Jon

[listerjp2]

Re: Well I didn't expect that...

It never ceases to amaze me how resourceful people are.

Adrian