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  • New / old kit cars.

    Hi all, I have been wandering about a few things concerning kit cars, first, is it still possible to build a new / old kit car, by this I mean, a kit car built today but registered pre 1973 ? second, If I own a kit car registered before 1973, how much of it could I update before I lose the right to a no road taxable car ?
    Regards, Harry.

  • #2
    Re: New / old kit cars.

    ooh the six million dollar question! Technically anything is possible - any kit that is built will have to go through IVA testing unless it is already registered (ie has been finished and on the road at some time). Typical Marlin problems regarding IVA are things like sharp edges on the body work - so round off the screen frame edges, check the running boards are correclty radiused at teh edges etc etc, watch out for the fuel filler cap too - all the bumf is on the site - in fact you can download the current IVA manual from here. http://www.marlinownersclub.com/foru...3&d=1350051060 or just look in the forum labelled Club Discussions.

    As for the 1973 reg threshold Im sure someone will correct me if im wrong but if the car is able to keep the registration from the donor (ie is made by using all/ most of the major componenets) then it shouldnt be a problem

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    • #3
      Re: New / old kit cars.

      My understanding is that the chassis is the deciding factor whether it's a 'Kit' car or any other BUT this is a very grey area, maybe not in the regulations but in the application of the regulations. There are all sorts of anomalies out there.

      If you were starting from scratch it would need an IVA and the registration would be now.

      In order to be pre 1973 you need a car with a viable pre 73 chassis, a pre 73 V5 and then you should be able to restore it and retain the pre 73 status. If you replace all the main components, i.e., suspension, engine, transmission and chassis, then it needs re-registering and will need an IVA.

      I am sure there is more to this but that's my 2 penneth.

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      • #4
        Re: New / old kit cars.

        Thanks for the reply, so I gather both of you believe a person can still legally build a pre 1973 kit car as long as you get yourself a pre 1973 car with viable documentation ? I had asked a few lads about this but we could not find information on this subject, I am still not sure about how far a person could legally push the bounds on the amount of parts used, would the engine, gear box and suspension be a minimum ?? also, if I wish to modify my pre 73 kit car, how far could modification go before I overstepped the mark ? I find this an interesting subject in it's own right !

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        • #5
          Re: New / old kit cars.

          I think so but I believe it would have to use a pre 73 chassis or floor pan ie Beetle or other chassis based vehicle. I did read something about this recently but have no idea where. I think it could have been on the DVLA website but I have visited so many websites in the last few months I can't hope to remember them all. I have something like 3,000 bookmarks! Not all car related though.

          There are a lot of Land Rovers which have swapped identities long before the free road tax came in. I look after one which must have been built from about four. I built a Mini once (one of several) from parts of three body shells, engine, gearbox and subframes all from several miscellaneous cars I had broken for bits. I took the identity from the front part of the body shell which had the number on it, for which I had a V5. Like I say there are all sorts out there.

          If you make changes to the body type, wheel plan, engine capacity etc you have to notify DVLA. At what point a vehicle changes it's identity is debatable but I would say the body shell or chassis unless you are replacing it with the same?. If a Landrover crashes and needs a new chassis, cost apart, if it were replaced it shouldn't need re-registering, but it would have a different VIN?

          Many years ago I read a report in Motor Sport. Someone had bought a Bentley of the thirties racing era, from a reputable dealer, it was a well known car owned by one of the successful Brooklands teams. The buyer was quite knowledgable and was very interested to check the various numbers on the car, chassis, engine, Gearbox etc. To his dismay none of the numbers matched his expectations from his records, he compared photographs of the car taken at Brooklands and other places and discovered many differences from the car he had bought. He tried to return the car to the dealer stating it wasn't the actual racing Bentley he thought he had bought but the dealer refused saying that it was the genuine car but over the years as a racing car many changes had been made, both for development and repairs from broken engines, crashes etc.

          It went to court. The judge agreed with the dealer that although few of the parts from the original car remained, it was in fact still the same car. I understand this example is case law and has been applied to other similar case since. The judge gave an example of the Gardner who had a spade which had had two new blades and five new handles. It was still the same spade.

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          • #6
            Re: New / old kit cars.

            Don't confuse registration with IVA. Its a totally different process. To get through IVA you need to build a car that meets the IVA regs. The only 'age' related part of IVA is the engine emissions test, and you have to prove the age of the engine to the examiner's satisfaction so the correct test can be applied.

            After that you need to get it registered and it will either be
            1. New reg, only if you can prove all the components are new or refurbished to a new standard. It also means you will have to pass the latest emissions
            2. Q reg. Its a pile of untraceable bits
            3. Its a 'Radically altered vehicle'. This is what we in the outside world call a kit car, though the official definition of a kit car differs. If it is a 'Radically altered vehicle' then it will be given a registration for the same year as the donor. This web page defines the criteria for this https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registrat...tered-vehicles

            DVLAs interpretation of 'kit car' is if you buy a complete kit in a box and assemble it. The nearest to a 'DLVA kit car' would be a Caterham...

            If you keep the original chassis then you keep the original registration. BUT if you modify the chassis (i.e. VW Beetle cut and shut to make a beach buggy) then you have to go through IVA and registration.
            Last edited by chris_cussen; 11-01-13, 07:14 AM. Reason: Add bit about chassis

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            • #7
              Re: New / old kit cars.

              If you build a kit that uses a new body/chassis kit along with at least two major componenents from one donor car then you may be able to have an allocated age related plate to coincide with the original donor. But the kit car will still have to have a IVA.

              The discussion will then be the date of its first registration. Will it be the original date of the donor( I Dont think so) or the date of erection of the new age related registration( more likely ££££)
              Ben Caswell probably not the last word on anything here!!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: New / old kit cars.

                Thanks to all who replied, it's interesting stuff, but I have another question. If I decided I did not care for the Marina front suspension and I fitted a more modern suspension that was a very different set up, would I need to get it checked via IVA, after all I may make a proper mess of this and it could be highly dangerous ??

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: New / old kit cars.

                  I think any car has the potential to be made highly dangerous, I don't believe an IVA will catch all and every potentially dangerous design, after all Toyota and many of the major manufacturers seem to regularly sell cars with serious design faults and they have an army of technicians and scientists who's job it is to check these things, far more searching than any IVA.

                  To a large degree it's up to the builder, especially if they are innovating, to stay within their envelope of experience and knowledge. A car is a complex device, many things interact and many factors come into the equation. The suspension is just one of them. This applies to even the simplest of things like tightening the wheel nuts after changing a wheel. The level of competence needs to match the task. It's up to the person undertaking the task to take the responsibility for their actions, in my opinion.

                  One of the most dangerous devices is the MIG welder, every man and his dog who own a MIG believe they are the worlds best welder, when in fact many of the welds (which may look good) are rubbish and could fail without warning. That is one reason why I used a stick welder for all the welds on my recent build. It's far easier to spot a bad stick weld than a bad MIG weld.

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                  • #10
                    Re: New / old kit cars.

                    Thanks for the reply Robert, it's interesting stuff, I've been a multi skilled fitter etc for 25 or so years and I done many miles of stick and mig welding whilst fabricating hoppers etc, you are quite right about the mig welding and I've seen a lot of poor stick welding too, I find both are a bit of a pain as used on the thin sheet of a car body. The question of a persons competency is a minefield, I have known many men who's belief in their ability has been well out of kinter with reality and it's caused much hurt feeling once the fact of the matter has dawned, lol. I must admit, I'm not sure I would tackle a complete change of front suspension without some expert help !

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                    • #11
                      Re: New / old kit cars.

                      "....is it still possible to build a new / old kit car, by this I mean, a kit car built today but registered pre 1973 ?"

                      definatley NO...even using an "old" donor in combiantion with a "new" kit, therefore in 99% a new chassis, might result in an age related plate only!!

                      saying for example in the V5c under
                      B:
                      "date of 1st registration 1964"
                      and B1:
                      "date of 1st registration 2011"

                      such a car will NOT be tax exempt!!!

                      but there is a kind of loophole:

                      if you use (very important!!) a NON-Modified donor chassis which you re-body this will result an a "real" old reg-date.

                      i know of 2 companies doing this actually: Sammio and Tribute

                      both companies are using a triumph (herlad, vitesse or spit) donor.
                      Last edited by Sportster-Green; 11-01-13, 09:54 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Re: New / old kit cars.

                        What front suspension do you have in mind? The Marina suspension was an afterthought when the Triumph suspension donors started to dry up, so it's the Marina suspension which has been substituted on roadsters. Most kits are built using standard type suspension, few kit builders would start from scratch. Many kit builders fine tune their suspension to suit their needs and desires. The Sierra suspension is heavily adopted on the later Marlins. There are many mods which are 'accepted' like fitting adjustable tie rods, and adjustable rate dampers, adjustable spring seats, etc. Maladjusting some of the settings could cause instability under some conditions but I think people who make these mods tend to know their limitations and take their cars to suspension specialists to get the settings done.

                        My point about poor stick welding is that generally a poor stick weld is easier to spot. I have made some beautiful MIG welds which with the tap of a hammer have fallen clean apart and I count myself as pretty experienced having been welding stick since I was about 16 and started with MIG in about 1985 or earlier? Repairing plant and machinery and making digger buckets and ripper teeth with high yield steel, later went on to making ornamental ironwork, gates, railings and the like.

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                        • #13
                          Re: New / old kit cars.

                          Welding aside, if you highly modify the front suspension you stand a very good chance of introducing some highly dangerous handling characteristics, such as bump steer. This wont show up at iva testing because the car is never driven at speed, and never over uneven surfaces. Car suspension is a highly complex subject so unless you understand the mechanics of it then leave it to the experts.

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